Lead Smarter Podcast

Hey, Nik, thanks for joining us again.

It's good to chat with you after we had a chance to connect earlier.

Really excited to get to chat with you a bit about your leadership journey and the
experiences you've had building your own business.

Just from the history of getting started to now having dealt with global brands.

Can you maybe share a little bit about your journey and walk us through from where you
were a sponsored snowboarder all the way to founding Defy?

Yeah, absolutely.

David, great to join you again.

I was super excited to come back on to have another conversation with you.

So my journey started as an untraditional one.

I decided to pursue professional snowboarding and sponsored snowboards in the early 90s.

I graduated high school, moved to Vermont.

where I picked up my first sponsor.

and then I proceeded to, to go to Vail, Colorado.

and then ended up ended my career in the late nineties with my third right ACL, blown out
and decided that that was the time that I could, go back and pursue some studies.

So at that time, I attended a community college, which I paid for myself, and majored in
photography and graphic design.

I started my first company with my father, who's a nuclear physicist and point of sales
system developer, where we brought dynamic art, e -commerce art galleries online so that

they, in addition to having their brick and mortar, they could be able to sell their
works.

And then we did all right before the internet bubble.

And then as of 2001,

I started my agency, was 2ONE5 Creative.

And what we did at 2ONE5 Creative was pretty much the same thing that we do at Defy, which
is look at things through a defiant lens.

so, know, zig when others are zagging, right?

You know, we're not looking to blend in, we're looking to stand out.

You know, how do we do that?

We do that through...

typography, through color, through composition.

But it's an interesting story.

Back when I started, I had a goal of working with a, at that time was a local
restaurateur, which at this time is a national restaurateur, Steven Starr, and Starr

Restaurants.

I surpassed that goal by working with Burton Snowboards for the next six years.

Fast forward into 2008, 2009, into the depression, things were, you know, things were bad.

There was, there wasn't much happening.

a lot of, a lot of, companies that we were working with within the action sports market,
it brought all their marketing and, and core branding in house.

wasn't a lot of risk taking was a lot of, people operating in safe spaces.

Found myself, following up on, on a post on LinkedIn and they were looking for a creative
director.

International Watch Magazine was looking for a creative director.

So I took the opportunity to say, why hire one person when you can hire a small team and
add more value?

And they said, they invited us to the pitch.

Long story short, we won the pitch.

Agency of record of International Watch Magazine, which also led to luxury retail
engagements.

And then fast forward through there, it's a different space I was not familiar with.

And ultimately I woke up one day and it didn't feel natural to me.

so I had a conversation with myself and it's like, what do you really want?

Who can you really help?

And that's when we found ourselves in more consumer brands and people that were really
truly trying to stand out.

and then we could help them solve creative problems with our perspective and approach.

And on 2 .15 of 2021 is when we renamed, rebranded, and relaunched the agency as Defy.

You have a choice to follow or defy.

As you were moving in a direction, what you've described sounds like you started, let's
just call it, with sports products.

Well, first it started with art and then you moved into, it sounded like sports products,
then into luxury.

mean, it sounds like if I was following this, almost like you were following lifestyle
brands or lifestyle products.

And I don't know if it's me just reading into it or if the reality is maybe you would

run into maybe this luxury watch wasn't your lifestyle, so it didn't feel like it fit or
wasn't the brand.

that kind of the, Hey, you know, yeah, I really enjoy art so I can speak to it I can tell
the story.

really enjoy sports.

can speak to it and tell the story.

But for you as a leader, as you got into the luxury watch and that lifestyle, didn't feel
like it was a fit for you or was there a different reason for making that change?

It was a foreign environment for me.

It wasn't as though I couldn't tell those stories, but it was that I didn't have the rich
experience that I did within sports applied to luxury goods.

And that delivered us a challenge.

What we were experts in at that time was print production.

And we were producing cover to cover this publication every 27 days with

seven to eight color finishes and colors on the cover and sometimes inserts and then
translated into Chinese.

And so basically it was the expertise that we found ourselves having within the editorial
space and being able to reimagine these sections, but also creating a system, a design

system that was applicable throughout the entire magazine.

And even during, we went through a second rebrand halfway through our journey.

And that was at the time where the owner decided to sell the magazine.

But ultimately, you know, we lead everything with story, right?

And when, you know, I feel like very strongly that people connect with people over how
they describe themselves and they describe their opinions and personal stories and voyages

and failures and ultimately like,

We stay away from buzzwords.

We try and keep it as genuine as we can.

But ultimately, it's people connect with people and that's their story.

And in the luxury watch, did you find the story to be more buzzwords, less authenticity?

And you, I mean, you don't have to share if you're like, that's not a good fit, but I was
just curious because that's kind of.

Yes.

Yeah.

It felt like it was.

more stale Z than than branding.

And the the stories were all very similar.

So, you know, Swiss made and Swiss washmakers and the Swiss, the meticulousness and the
white gloves and the this and that that, you know, it all just kind of, you know, if you

opened up a magazine, you couldn't tell whose ad was whose.

watch is this big and it's superimposed here and the tenon, you know, there's rules to it.

Anytime you photograph a watch, the hands have to be a tenon too.

This was, you know, this was a rule and anytime you broke that rule, it was obvious that
you had no experience within the luxury game, specifically in photographing watches.

I learned that at a very young place in my career.

We were doing a

local magazine that we did custom photography for and I didn't know that and somebody came
over my shoulder and corrected me.

So saved my ass basically.

But I'll never forget that lesson again.

And it's funny when I see some photographers not applying that, you can tell that they've
not worked in that space before.

And when you were, so you said you were, what was it, 215, right?

Was the original before you changed.

Can you remember the defining moment when you decided I'm gonna, I need a pivot and I.

you discovered what the brand would be.

Yeah, absolutely.

So it's not what the brand would be.

It's the moment that I decided that we couldn't exist as 215 anymore.

And there was a couple of things.

We're based in Philadelphia.

There were instances of confusion.

There were other 215s.

In fact, it had gotten to a point where there were three.

One was a magazine and there were two other agencies.

And there was, consistent confusion, but David, the re you know, the real evidence for it
was, was I found myself in prospect meetings saying, you know, if you want the same real

estate, you know, brand approach that from that everyone else will do, we're not the
group.

And so, you know, the more that I said that the more consistent I came with that, said,
how can I say that?

How can I create a qualifier within our agency name?

to do the work for me before I even get through.

And that's what, you know, you have a choice to follow or defy.

And that's what, you know, defy means.

as we were transitioning, took us about two years to, build this, this narrative and to
build this, this, rebrand.

And during that time, we did an in -depth biography of, my story and, my experiences and

how sort of untraditional they were and the things that I was passionate about and some of
my failures and projections.

And that really is what informed the brand narrative, which we used when we launched on
215 of 21.

So I know that for many leaders, especially if you own the business outright, going
through a branding exercise like what you just described, obviously, basically you did a

deep dive on yourself, becoming that vulnerable and being, it sounds like it's got to
reflect you to a degree that is probably uncomfortable for most, even if they are leaders.

I'd be very interested in.

what that experience was like for you.

Some people are a lot more comfortable with it than others.

You, sounds like, had more than just yourself go through this process.

So now you've got maybe your team that's digging into who you are and trying to tell a
story about you.

What was that experience like for you?

Well, so it was a fun experience.

It was nostalgic.

I uncovered moments that I'd forgotten and challenges that I'd forgotten and other
victories that I'd forgotten.

it was a great exercise for me to be able to do and to inform the team, but to task them
with this isn't Nick Greenblatt.

this is Defy, and so how do you take the DNA and create a narrative that is gonna resonate
with your core audience to create any desire to work with us and understand the value in

the different perspective that Defy delivers.

Did you go through a process of trying to balance like, just like you were saying, so this
can't be just me.

it's got to reflect, the direction of the organization.

So you've got to include like intentionally you want to include, and bring in the team
that's going to be a part of this.

have to also see themselves in this.

how did you manage getting them to come on board being a part of, and getting energized by
being a part of the brand that ultimately does reflect you as the leader, but you're

trying to get it to go beyond.

When we hire, we traditionally hire athletes that have competed at some point in their
lives.

And so there is one common thread throughout, and that is a fierce competitive spirit that
we look for when we bring in talent at the five.

And so it was being able to...

tell their story in different stanzas, if you would, throughout the narrative.

And not only present case, but future case too, as we build who we wanna work with and how
we see it rolling out.

So it was an intricate exercise.

It was a challenging one.

And although we have a foundation,

We're consistently evolving.

I, much to my team's dismay, get a bit tired of looking at the same thing over and over
and don't often drink my own Kool -Aid.

And so they do a great job of getting me back in my lane.

And they do that by asking questions, you know?

And obviously, know, David, what's the why, Nick, right?

Like, why do you, why, you know?

I love color, I love texture, I love grit, I love all these things.

One of the things, David, that we did is I instituted seasonal palettes for the brand so
that we have consistent typography, we have consistent branding and logo marks and value

system and manifesto, but.

Because of my passion and background within fashion, prior to even snowboarding, I felt
like that was a way to add a layer of refresh every season.

So it actually isn't every season, but it's twice a year.

And we introduce, you know, call it a fall winter palette or call it a, you know, a spring
summer palette.

And that is utilized to create energy within the brand system.

And I mean, your marketing agency with your background in design, things like that, I'm
assuming that you went through this exercise with your team and it was not something you

brought in an external agency to help you brand yourself.

You guys did this all in house.

And then, so to me, it sounds like you've got the in -house expertise to help a brand tell
its story, develop its story, create its origin story, basically.

But my understanding is that what you really do, like the

what the marketing agency does is you're helping tell the story for products and sell the
products.

Do you see your agency, your company going, taking on what you've done with your own
company and helping companies tell their story from a brand perspective?

Like who are you as a company helping them develop the brand, not just sell the products?

I'm not sure if that's something you already do.

Yeah, that's something that's absolutely what we what we already do.

Right.

And so one of the core defy differentiators is our process.

And so whether it's a docu -series for Nike, whether it's a creative campaign to solve an
occupancy problem for a real estate company or whether it is a traditional rebrand, we

always start with a key idea and what that unlocks.

And from there, we craft a narrative over a visual system that then has different
modalities to it.

So a range within the visual system, and then that is applied to, to proofs of concept.

so, being able to tell that the brand story or product story in a short amount of time
with the least amount of words is, is a very challenging.

thing, but we find it's oftentimes overlooked.

David, I would tell you that the majority of the conversations that I have with people
that are like, we already have a brand.

And they're talking about a font.

I just had this conversation yesterday, literally yesterday.

And I have a logo and I have a color.

And I said, what's the story?

And they're like, what?

and I said, well, and then I, and I, and then I say, I had some trouble screen sharing.

I said, let me just read it down to you.

This is for the global finance function within Nike and give this a listen.

And there are, as it just builds, you know, it just builds and then builds and then bang,
it's the payoffs.

Right?

And so we find, you know, we really, really find that that is a core differentiator in the
majority of every conversation that we have.

And so, you know, I talked about the docu -series that we did for Nike.

Why did we win that over all the other agencies that we went to or that they went to?

we believe that it was the integration of brand and storytelling and not just one or the
other.

And so we created an entire visual system for the docu -series.

We named it, we branded it, we built a broadcast system around it, which was the visual
system.

And so we find ourselves really just holding ourselves to the same process no matter what
it is so that we can be able to build.

a range of modality in the design system that then is applied to the Cruiser Concept,
whether it's a social campaign, a website, a video series, an animated series, like

whatever it may be.

well, what would you say to companies that are like, there's lots of business owners out
there and Nike is massive, right?

So they'd be like, sure.

Yeah.

If I had Nike's budget, of course I'd go through a branding exercise, but I, you know, I
just own a single shop or I own like a multi -location, but no, I'm not a global brand.

So like, what's the value for me to go through that process rather than just, you know,
iterate and sell until I run into something I have to explain later.

Because we're a boutique agency, we still find ourselves with the ability to be able to
perform the process within truncated timelines.

And so we've got a sprint product that we utilize for smaller to mid -sized businesses
that doesn't take the months that it takes for enterprise level companies.

And so...

So we have diff, you know, we're not one size fits all.

So I tend to bring them up, but we work with startups.

You know, we have a, crafted a narrative and a campaign for a startup street wear sock
company called Apothecary.

What does Apothecary mean to you?

What, I mean answer that David.

Yeah.

What does Apothecary mean?

some sort of mixing of, I'm gonna say drinks, elixirs.

Like, that's my understanding of it.

Like I'd see apothecary as it relates to like tea shops or, know what mean?

Like that's where I see that word used currently.

It is so well, I mean, it's like pharmaceutical, you know, it's something to cure.

Basically it's whether it's an elixir or something, but it's used to cure.

so the engineers behind this product engineered a sock that would fit the, fit the limited
edition sneaker game better.

And so there was less material in the middle and there was less material here, but more
material here.

So it would fit the limited edition shoes better.

And so that was a common cure for the sneaker head.

And that was one of the tag lines that we crafted for them.

Not your over the counter sock, those kinds of things.

that gives you an idea of the story, right?

And this was for a startup sock company.

So it's not, you know, it's not, but it ultimately has to ladder up to what the brand name
is and what they stand for and what problem are they solving for.

How do you answer somebody who's trying to identify as a startup, what's the value of
going through a branding process?

Like they're in a different category entirely typically than somebody that's, and maybe
these people have already done startups so they have an understanding, but then there's

somebody who's truly an entrepreneur starting their first business trying to figure out as
a leader, what's the value of going through this process for me, if I can, just like you

said, if I can point at.

I've got a font, a color, and a logo.

Why do I need more of them?

I mean, you've heard me say it before, know, stories resonate with people and people, you
know, buy into other people's stories and, you know, emotional connections.

Emotional branding is really a timeless execution for marketing.

You see it within a lot of stories, whether it's Dick's Sports Matters series from 10
years ago, or whether you see it within

within some of the newer commercials, even for a biopharma, Lily, you see some of the
Olympic ads that were done for them.

Emotional branding is key and that's telling stories that will connect with people and
impact their lives and that they can see themselves in.

And a logo and a font and a color doesn't do that.

This is just a visual identifier at that point, doesn't actually connect your replaceable
commodity basically at that point.

It's no different than hiring a professional to manage your books or your accounts
payable.

You wouldn't take your Maserati to Midas, would you?

That's right.

Yep.

No, no.

So yeah, it's really no different.

You hire an expert to solve a problem and to enhance.

I mean, a lot of where we find our value, whether it's within a startup or whether it's an
enterprise, is the journey to acquisition.

And so we had a client a couple of years ago that came to us and...

with the problem that their service didn't match their visuals.

And so they had an outdated website, they had an outdated deck, they had an outdated logo.

They were called, they added like consultants to their name.

Well, we removed consultants.

We modernized their design system.

We rebuilt everything for them.

And months later, they were acquired by a much larger company for a larger value,
valuation.

along or was there, so like they engage you because they were trying to get to a better
valuation or?

Yes, but they didn't tell us that.

Okay, well, I mean that's a success story that you didn't even know you were aiming at.

That's right.

No, and even a startup, there was, we did a prior to NIL being really a public thing, we
did a campaign for a small startup.

It was giving financial advice to athletes that held a dear place in my heart because of
the professional snowboarding and a lot of my friends who had misused their funds.

So we partnered with them.

And months after the launch, they were acquired as well.

I can't remember if it was a merger or an acquisition.

So it's not just larger companies, it's even smaller companies.

But there's a reason why venture capitalists and private equity invest in branding
exercises, and that's because of the payoff.

And so that's really where we found a lot of value.

that defy ads.

In what you've just described, so I'm thinking about the life cycle of this process then.

Is it better for a small business that is looking to be bought by a venture capital
company to not go through the rebranding so that they preserve the value of the increased

value resale, basically like house flipping, right?

Do I preserve the value to be purchased by the venture capitalist?

they'd go through the branding re -exercise because they're looking to resell.

I think it's a, I mean, there's no one size fits all, right?

And if your product is that fantastic, you're going to be acquired.

You know, I just saw a company yesterday that was one of the company that I didn't think
was going to be acquired that was acquired.

Right.

And so it's, it's not, know, it's, but it's a combination of even if you're able to put
together a package that feels

story -based and feels buttoned up to a certain level to get you to that VC phase or PE
phase that they'll then dial you up even here.

So if you dialed yourself up here, you get to them and then elevate it all the way up to
there, which could mean either another injection or another acquisition.

And it just keeps rolling from there.

But we don't do creative for creative sake.

We don't do brand for brand sake.

We do it to solve problems and to create the projected outcomes that our clients come to
us for.

And do you, so you said that a couple of situations that actually ended up in acquisition,
would you have approached it any differently if you knew that was the end goal or is it

the same thing?

Like it's telling the story for the brand, it's gonna help grow the business and it's
gonna be the same exercise either way.

The outcome might be different though.

Same exercise, absolutely same process, but I think there would be different
intentionality, right?

Like if we were exposed to all the information, there probably would have been different
levers we would have pulled.

It's hard to say, but...

hold back in this process because you can't inject the intentionality otherwise.

Right, exactly.

Okay, do you work with any brands other than fashion?

Like you said, you work with startups, is it all fashion, all, or do you work with like a
tech startup or?

We have in the past consumer electronic companies.

So whether they were cables or chargers or things like that, we actually work with
fintechs and biotechs and technology, larger technology companies.

None of that work is public and not charitable, but we, one of the companies that we've
worked with, we did a rebrand for

years ago and it was it wasn't a logo change.

I mean it's a public company but what it was was how do you tell their story and the
team's story both externally and internally with the fewest amount of words and we coined

the term solve on

Solve on.

that, Solve On, yeah, it's a biotech company that creates drugs to cure cancer.

And so what is that spirit and that driving rigor that brings the researchers and
scientists to come and help people's lives?

It helps them continue to solve on, right?

It's that motivator.

And how do we say that?

How's that our anthem?

We don't have to look far for motivation, right?

Because we're looking at our patients.

Sure.

you know, that was a great exercise and a great execution on storytelling, but also to
date, probably one of the best guidelines we've ever coined.

Brand lines rather.

like that's outside of what the core client base you typically are working with.

Did that inspire you to want to expand outside even more?

Like, hey, this was such a great exercise, so fun, I need to.

The, I mean, David, the truth of the matter was, was there's a Maverick CEO driving this
company and he and I hit it off and he made some really brave statements within the first

initial discovery meetings that we had.

And I kept pushing him and he said, you know, he said he wants it.

And we had never to date worked with a pharma or biotech company.

This was the, it's the only one we're working with to date.

And that is because of.

his Maverick vision for that company.

Okay, so maybe the fit is less industry and more is the leader open and ready to take a
step beyond what they're comfortable with.

And listen, that, that, started as an extreme case that I can't tell you that every client
scenario that we're in is like that or stays like that.

And nor should that be portrayed, right?

But if we can start our conversation like that and we can push each other.

to think differently, to create better outcomes, then that's of interest to myself and the
team at Defy.

One of the things we talked about last time we were chatting was the approach of like, as
we're dealing with market ups and downs, what are some ways to deal with when there's a

market down or when there's approach?

One of the things we talked about is you were looking for ways to expand your own
outreach, your own client intake.

And I think you'd started talking about going through personal branding and starting to
actually publish.

your own content.

Could you tell me a little bit about that, how you decided to go into that direction and
what that experience has been like for you as a leader?

Yeah, absolutely.

It's been a fun new exercise for me.

It stimulated parts of my brain to tell my own story, which I often kept to myself.

But a good friend of mine who's a CMO of a global company was posting these long form
content on LinkedIn.

And I'm not a long form guy.

I'm a short and sweet and visual guy.

But what I am, I am opinionated.

And so he inspired me to tell those stories in a way that was true to my voice and true to
my DNA.

And that's when I became excited to do that within the LinkedIn platform.

And so I don't tell those stories really anywhere else, but on LinkedIn.

And I don't do it for any other reason than if I can inspire one person

to think or consider something differently than I've done my job.

Now, oftentimes I can.

There are sometimes where I don't.

But it's important for me to be able to share personal stories, to share opinions.

I am a very opinionated person and I have, I'm passionate about my preferences.

I realize that they are...

They are my own and they're not for everybody, but you know, one of the principles of
defies is to do things differently and.

I think that there's value in that.

I've been called an acquired taste and that's by design because I think that that's more
interesting.

So yeah, mean, and I continue to evolve those stories to whether it's actions or whether
it's art and culture, whether it's branding and advertising.

or fashion, I have opinions about those things and I try and stimulate people to just
maybe consider different avenues to pursue or, mean, lot of what I've been writing about

recently is AI within the industry and how we're utilizing it and how some people are
using it incorrectly and things like that.

In addition, know, AI is a big subject matter that I've been passionate about writing
about.

Are you writing about it from the perspective of its use in marketing or from its
specifically, or is there like, mean, obviously it bleeds into a lot of aspects of life as

it's getting bigger, it can touch different areas.

I've seen like, no, there was this AI CEO.

They literally, they wanted to do an AI CEO.

So like what's the conversation that you focus on when you talk about AI?

It's mostly within branding and marketing and how we embrace some of the tools and how the
tools are evolving or where they're falling flat or prompt development for some of the

applications or how partner agencies are using theirs.

So we've got a partner agency that uses, they're not creating any AI, but they're using
existing

AI to solve problems, whether it's a government based RFP system that needs to be able to
go through hundreds of documents and turn out a response.

So, I mean, I would say it's probably 80 -20.

I stay pretty much about what I know and then share stories of how others have used it
successfully.

And then, you know, kind of drop bombs on how people are failing, companies are failing on
using it.

they hear the term and they think that they need to adapt to it and they misuse it.

Well, I'm actually curious.

So you said you started doing your own personal publishing.

How long have you been doing it like focusing on personal brand?

Like when did you start decide to actually commit to that process?

Two years ago.

I guess, you know, I guess it was, I started right in the midst of the pandemic.

So yeah, that would be a little over two years ago, but it evolved.

In the pandemic, it was more on Instagram actually than it was on LinkedIn.

It was more about mindset.

and exercise and meditation and things like that to be able to keep the mind calm in the
midst of chaos or an attempt really.

saying the mind wasn't calm, so it was an attempt really.

And then that evolved into telling the stories in short form onto LinkedIn.

so that's been...

That's been a couple, a couple of years, probably two years that I've been consistent in
that, you know, I, yeah, I just, think it's important.

don't know if you were going to ask this or not, but I think it's important for
individuals that are investing in that not to, not to create a cadence that they can't

keep up with.

So I don't, I don't craft content every day.

Okay.

I craft content a couple of times a week.

I have some playbooks that I wouldn't even say I adhere to, but that, you know, that helps
guide my journey.

But in reality, you know, I'm on two platforms and it's Instagram and LinkedIn.

And my Instagram is far more personal, personal and visually driven.

And my LinkedIn is.

more opinionated and professional.

And so it gives me the opportunity to break up my day in ways that I wasn't doing it
before and creating valuable conversations and ultimately micro story.

I would say there's, I've got lots of questions on this, one being like leaders that are,
haven't committed to this process.

You say it breaks up your day and I'm certain going into that they're like, well, it
sounds like a commitment.

Like I don't see it breaking up my day.

see it like consuming time that I don't have to give right now.

But I, of the things that you had mentioned in that process was the expectations you set
for yourself.

Like you just, if you could, you know, help one person with the content.

You kept the bar low, you were inspired to do it from the beginning from somebody that you
trusted.

So you basically committed to a process without knowing what the outcome was going to be.

In that process, was there anything that surprised you?

It's been two years, right?

So has there been like responses or connections that have surprised you?

Great question.

I've got a good answer.

Yes.

Yes.

Maybe it was because I set expectations low, but they were iconic brands that inquired to
me to participate in some of their RFPs from just seeing my content on LinkedIn.

So you personally, they reached out because they saw you messaging and you've been able to
interact with.

it.

They just, read my content and I, and were inspired by it.

And it, you know, maybe this, you know, maybe this guy and if I, you know, have a shot,
ultimately, you know.

right?

So you didn't sign an NDA, are you allowed to say who those were?

All right, all right.

Well, I...

You shake your head no, and then tell me.

Well, that's awesome.

Very cool that that was the case.

You've also mentioned, I've heard throughout this conversation, you've identified yourself
multiple times as opinionated.

So in the space where if I'm a leader and I recognize something that's true about myself,
I tend to...

want to disarm myself and then arm my team to be able to call me on my shit basically.

And it sounds like that's what you're doing.

You're basically saying to the world, I'm opinionated.

I'm gonna be that way.

But I'm saying it out loud so I expect you to challenge me on it.

That's what I would do and it sounds like what you're doing.

that?

thousand percent.

Yeah, a thousand percent.

does your team respond to your opinionated?

Like how have they learned how to engage you in a productive way?

Or are you just like, say, you know, no rules, just tell me, call me out on it.

And I'm happy to express why I have this opinion.

I say I try to.

And different people respond differently.

Different people have different opinions and put theirs out there.

So maybe it inspires them to be able to project their values and their experiences.

But ultimately, you know, that...

That would be great if they all did, but ultimately, some do, some don't.

And it's really more about leading by example.

mean, as hard as, I'm celebrating 23 years of running a creative agency, and I continue to
evolve.

I just found a presentation that we did a decade ago.

or a rebrand where we didn't have the process in place that we do now.

And I sort of giggled to myself, I'm not one to not call a spade a spade.

It was like, I think there's a lot of value in learning.

I'm a non -traditional learner.

I learn by fucking up and I try not to fuck up again.

But having those experiences.

is what allows, you know, it opens up some other ways of thinking.

you know, embrace the disruption and untraditionalism and, you know, the counterculture
that I was part of, you know, growing up and how that's applicable to advertising and

marketing today.

You said that one of things you do is you learn by fucking up.

As the leader, I'm assuming in your own organization, how do you give your team permission
to fuck up?

Basically, because that's the identified your own way to learn.

So you basically got to say like, look, you can fuck up, but you should mix it up and
spread it out.

Fuck up is fine.

Just don't keep doing the same fuck up close together.

I mean, lead by example, own it, own accountability.

You know, I find myself owning my fuck ups and moving on and turning the page quickly.

And I think I've inspired my team to try and do the same things.

And so if there's no admittance of failure, fucking up or whatever it may be, then that's
hard to turn that page.

But if it's like, yo, should I did, then conversation's over, right?

Until it happens again, but likely it doesn't.

So as long as there's really accountability within the entire team, then I think you can
embrace the, I wouldn't even call it failure culture, but like, you know, take risks.

That's another one of our taglines is take risks, counter culture.

So, and that's really what we try to do.

With the difference in the power dynamic, obviously, like in the end of the day, you get
to say what is done or not.

But that's never gonna produce the best result.

It's just gonna produce the best result you can do.

So how do you enable your team who, if you tell them, like if I was a team member of yours
and I heard you say, I'm opinionated, it sounds like you're giving me permission to call

you on it.

But I only know that because I'm thinking from the perspective of a leader.

If I was a team member of yours,

and I heard you tell me that you're opinionated.

I wouldn't know unless you gave, unless you imbued the culture to allow them to call you
on something that maybe is a difference of opinion.

I wouldn't know that that wouldn't mean I also believe my opinion's right.

So what do you do in your culture to it?

Like encourage them to challenge an opinion or a perspective.

people you trust and listen to them.

Those are difficult conversations.

I realized that what I did yesterday doesn't really matter or affect what I'm going to do
today.

And so what do I mean by that?

I mean, you know, there's pre -pandemic and there's post -pandemic and there's direct
response and there's Omni Channel and all these advertising words, right?

And so, you know, it's been difficult for me to let go of the things that I've learned in
the past because of the different climate that we're in now.

So, you know, I take a direct response approach to a TikTok video or, you know, an
Instagram reel where ultimately that's not always storytelling.

You know, that's like a traditional broadcast methodology.

And so there's a place for that, but it's the trust that I have in my team to come to me
and say, no, we know we're living this, we're younger, we trust that we need you to trust

us that we can do this.

And those are spare the conversations, they become very uncomfortable.

Sure.

for both sides, but ultimately.

It's critical listening and it's trusting your team and it's holding up, you know, taking
risks and trying things that are different.

So that's what I try and that's the culture I try and keep here at DePuy.

Can you give an example of a time that a team member brought a challenge to what would you
call like an opinion?

Like you had a strong opinion, they challenged it and you guys found some sort of
compromise or you even conceded that, yep, that may be a different perspective.

yeah, but I can't disclose that at this time.

but I would say that I completely, I would say that I completely conceded.

Okay, well that's reinforcing in the environment, if nothing else, to identify that
there's differences of opinions that you can, and the diversity in your team helps.

That's right.

Yeah.

I mean, I would, I see a lot of other agencies with the inability to evolve and embrace
change.

so, you know, asking myself hard questions, asking the team some, some harder questions
and making sure that they're doing things that can allow them to create efficiencies and

within their work days.

Because we don't, we're a boutique agency.

We don't do one thing here.

You know, we hire people from multiple skill sets.

So account managers can be producers, know, creative directors can be writers.

You know, I myself do everything from business development to ops, to chief creative
officer.

So it keeps it exciting, but if we're not learning, then we're not.

evolving and, you know, defy or die is another tagline that we use.

We apply that a lot to our, the merchandise that we put out there, but, you know, you've
read the book, I'm sure, Differentiate or Die, and it's just, you know, defy or die.

I grew up skate or die, you know, if you're not, you know, if you're not evolving and
you're not listening, then ultimately, you know, you won't be heard and you won't be

relevant.

Well, it's impressive that you've made it this far in life when Dai was so many of the
options that you had to navigate to get where you are now.

Like it was half of your choices.

One of the things I was hoping to check, mean, speaking of learning, I was going to ask
you from, if you could take three lessons from all of your life experience up till now,

and you could go back and give those lessons, only three of them to your 18 year old self.

whether it's personal, professional, relationship development, building and running a
business, what would those three lessons be that you would try to give your 18 year old

self?

the ability to ask and the art of asking.

I am still gaining comfort with the art of the ask.

The second is how critical presentation skills are.

I wish that I invested a lot more in presentation at a younger age.

lastly, I would say that

and invest in people that complement your core.

If the idea is strong enough, then find others that will execute it.

But what you have of value is your ideas.

So don't think that you have to execute them by yourselves.

Okay.

And you mentioned, so in that, you mentioned presentation.

What do you mean by presentation?

Invest in presentation.

speak to the ideas that you're sharing.

mean, whenever we present a campaign idea or a rebrand, there's an art, there's the Don
Draper art of presentation.

And it's not only the...

It's not only the words, it's not only the narrative, but it's also how impactful the
visuals are and how little is on screen, but what you're speaking to versus what's on the

screen and what's going to help persuade and tell that story in a manner that will
resonate with people.

that's an area that I think personally for me that I can continually improve and I have my
team to invest in that as well.

But the ask, mean, the ask is the critical thing because there's no, I've never been
comfortable with it, but I've understood how important it is.

And I've taught, I have two sons, 15 and 17.

And my 17 year old a few years ago did a fundraiser where he had to craft a presentation
and present in front of, in front of.

corporate sponsors to gain sponsorships.

And I was like, man, I wish I had learned that art at that age and how important it is to
be able to tell the story with a deck, but to stand up in front of adults to be able to

persuade them to be able to support this cause.

It's so important.

And so, you know, it was a leukemia organization that they were working on.

And so I had tasked him with an opening statement of like, imagine a life without cancer
or where cancer didn't exist.

And so like, but I didn't know that at that age, but, know, and I, my dad was, you know, a
point of sale, developer and nuclear physicist.

He wasn't thinking like that.

so, you know, I think, I think.

There's comfort in the ask, there's presentation skills, and ultimately, there's active
listening and whatever else I just said on the third bullet point, which I don't remember.

I love that whatever else after was active listening and whatever else I said, wasn't
paying attention.

Well, speaking of the ask, you we've got listeners here.

You mentioned that you have been working on creating a, let's just call it like more of a
streamlined branding exercise.

people that are listeners, leaders themselves that are looking to do a better job with
their own branding, what would be the ask you'd leave them with?

How would you want them to reach out to you about getting in touch, going through a
rebranding process?

Give us the ask now.

I invite you to ask any questions to help you solve some problems.

can leave you with my email, is nik .greenblatt .com.

I'm on LinkedIn, on Instagram as ng underscore defy.

Find me, hit me up on any of those channels and let's start a conversation.

I'd be more than happy to help any way we can, whether they're small problems or big
problems.

Awesome.

Well, thanks again, Nick.

Sounds great.

We'll stay in touch, but appreciate your time here on the podcast.

And we'll talk to you soon.

Thanks, David.

It's been great talking to you again.

Cheers.

Cheers.